I don’t seem to be able to impress upon you, just how important these most fundamental of states are to our analog to digital understandings of this intricate workings of our present Universe. Most of QM is understood more or less as a discrete digital mechanics__Yet RM, is understood as an analog fluid mechanics, or as per hydrodynamics__These two systems are incompatible at the computational levels of either mental processings, or computerized mathematical processings__as now structured. This is the core of the problem I keep trying to get you to see. If this problem persists, science is not provable, at this most important a level.
Though our foolish egos can convince us, through our natural generalities of pseudo-perceptual-representations of our psychology, on one side of the coin, and our equally foolish complex pseudo-conceptual-representations of logic, on the other side__does not make the mechanics any more true, even though we may think it so__The math to date__is impossible, as well as are all the experiments to demonstrate such unifications. There exists yet, no unification of the four fundamental forces, as I’m sure you are well aware__and the only direction of force unifications I see possible, is to see the problems with our logics, theories and maths__which I’ve constantly tried to relate. I know you are probably not aware of this__but our logics, maths and weak theory experiments can be quite seductive to convincing us science knows far more than it does. Now, I’m not saying science does not well know what it does know__but that, science also does not know all it claims to know__and this is where I’m always drawing the skeptical line. Imo Tim, you possibly seem to assume more than is presently accountable by science. Yes, we know the generalities you speak of may be true__The point is to develop a science that is capable of sound verifications and quantifications of such__Which we presently, do not have… I’m simply asking you to realize more deeply, the drastic problems existing between generalities of inter-relational representations, logics, theories and maths, that clearly do exist__and where we have to go to solve these fundamental problems, as they are certainly still ‘very open problems’ for science…
Let me just pick out a few of your points below, that I may and may not dis-agree with, and relate some of my ideas with those I do agree with, without trying to incite too violent a dis-agreement__as I feel some of your points to be very valid, while others just may not be thoroughly fleshed out, yet...
If we were to envision such processes as analog or continuous at one resolution as we watched the FS waves interacting amongst each other and with various structured systems, then the photon seemingly loses its meaning as it is the wave which is seemingly important from such a perspective. However, if we were to look deeper within such waves and dissect them to a deeper resolution whereby witnessing the interaction parameters of how various quantities of substance move from unstructured field states into structured systems and the guidelines by which such quantities are absorbed, reflected or emitted, then a proper breakdown of such fluid continuous composite waves into its constituent aspects would have to allow for a more discrete digital type processing characteristic whereby we might find how mass itself moves from system to system whether building structure or increasing the density of unstructured field.
Perhaps, this will at least give us a starting point for some conversation on the subject of the mysterious photon…
And you see Tim, right here I’d have to take the opposite side of what you put across__about the deeper resolution not being required to be a discrete process, as you have described it__but one of a flowing dynamics of non-discrete FS-Fluidic non-viscous wave-particle flows, into our most infinitesimal fluid mechanics, from a superfluid to a time/distance extensional/dimensional particle__By this, I mean a stretching of the FS Fluid in a single direction, in such a fine structured thread, flowing in this one direction only, until another opposing chiral FS Fluid state en/counters such fine structured thread into a vortice/s of inter-action/s__first as a fundamental field state, then later as a Bose-Einstein Condensate, but at the most fundamental of hyper-fine structured fluid motion__it’s possibly not yet quantumized__and only exhibits discretely measurable quantum Planck states, after this most fundamental of infinitesimal fluid mechanics, of FS-Field formations.
All I’m saying Tim is, the most fundamental mechanics of the FS has to exhibit a fluid-dynamics capable of allowing a fundamental unification/de-unification mechanics to exist at its heart__in the first place theoretical state, for any real state mechanics to exist above such a state, as we know it to exist. This is why I’ve always written it as X/X = 1 + IIIEE, or there-abouts… If the Universe does not have the self-capacity-mechanics to state transition from discrete digital states to fluid non-discrete analog states, and vice versa__Then there’s no way to explain super-fluids__Which science absolutely knows exists, as experiments of liquid helium have existed since the 1930’s. Here’s a para: “Known as a major facet in the study of quantum hydrodynamics, the superfluidity effect was discovered by Pyotr Kapitsa, John F. Allen, and Don Misener in 1937. It has since been described through phenomenological and microscopic theories. The formation of the superfluid is known to be related to the formation of a Bose-Einstein condensate. This is made obvious by the fact that superfluidity occurs in liquid helium-4 at far higher temperatures than it does in helium-3. Each molecule of helium-4 is a boson particle, by virtue of its zero spin. Helium-3, however, is a fermion particle, which can form bosons only by pairing with itself at much lower temperatures, in a process similar to the electron pairing in superconductivity.” The point is Tim, science has no evidence of any discreteness of the overall mechanics of the superfluid state. Yes, there are fields and particles present, but the encapsulating fluid-dynamics is a true superfluid state, extended and entangled, as my formula above notes…
“As to the photon, it is the other side of the coin to structured matter as we know. When we observe and measure one form of FS ie structured vs unstructured, we are inadvertently observing and measuring aspects of the other.
Are you aware you are leaving out the hydrodynamic fluid mechanics, here__Tim…? And, the superfluid mechanics mentioned above is scientific proof of more than what is being measured on one side of the coin, being that representational measurement of the other side of the coin__so to speak__as it’s clearly not the case when looked at as a superfluid state of super-positioning fermions or photons/bosons__So, I think we gotta’ look a lil’ closer here, Tim. There’s more to this apple pie, than the sugar, even though the sugar gives it its sweetest flavor, and I think you’ll find this is why there’s so much hope for the ‘Higgs Mechanism’ being found at CERN… I’m betting on hydrodynamic superfluidity of both gravity and mass being proved when the Hadron gets up to full power…
I see it as an implication to not only the quantized changing of an electron within its orbit, but also indicative that all motion rather linear, angular, vibration or whatever, is quantized in its progression relative to the absolute frame. Our observation of the photon within the unstructured spatial medium being a quantized discrete interaction throughout its absorption or emission with structured matter is merely the only instance in which we have opportunity to verify such a discrete relationship with the absolute frame of time and space by way of the motions of matter.
Tim, there are theoretical experiments stating that quantization of photons are only seemingly quantized by the larger particles they enter, by the fluidicity of the photonic substance reaching saturation capacity, within whichever particle it enters, whether proton, neutron, electron or positron__which would also offer an alternative to direct photon quantization, i.e., analog fluidic substance entering and leaving already quantized particles, where resistive capacity is reached and terminated, except possibly at the Higgs Mechanism level, which requires the higher voltages and velocities at CERN__Of course, the particles mentioned were originally quantized in the absolute fundamental fluid to non-fluid field condensate mechanics, of long ago yesteryear__Just a few thoughts here to consider, Tim…
Now as to the photon, static vs. dynamic hardware, etc, it’s not that I don’t realize the greater complexity within the brain vs. a computer system, but my point there is that there is a mechanical hierarchy from the universal interactions through human intelligence, artificial intelligence, signal processing, electronics, etc, etc.
And my point is here Tim, that we are only investigating this area, as of yet__We have no sound science at the highest possible hiearchical level__yet, and this is what we are after. We have to be very careful in this area, as our egos will delude us into thinking through generality, that we know far more than we actually know__as this is my main area of investigation. Logicians, mathematicians, philosophers and the deepest thinking scientists all agree, that a thorough look at a metasemiotic mechanics of supervenience is most required of the understanding of such deep investigation, since it involves the investigation of our own thinking, which all the best minds agree, can only be understood with such a sign and symbol language, to keep track of all such information, that clearly pertains to its own self-interpretations__so’s not to be self-seduced by our own, far too close in, reasonings and or beliefs. It’s simply the ‘one/many’ problem again, Tim, but maybe more easily seen as the ‘superfluidity/super-positioning’ problem…
All of the technological breakthroughs whether biological or man made have been built within the constraints of the overseeing universal interactions, thus as we increase in technologically advanced methods, we are inadvertently mimicking many of the overseeing dynamics which govern our world.
Yeah, but we can’t advance here Tim__until we find new ways, methods and ideas of going forward, i.e., into new territory and new word systems, to better represent such complexities, more simply…
This is why analogies work well with our ability to comprehend such complex interactions as it is beneficial to us to relate to concepts which we are more familiar with thus allowing understanding by way of a preestablished path of logic within our mental processing.
And, I would simply state that we also need to learn new analogies to advance our thinkings__If not, we’re only repeating the mistakes of the past__no? When you look at economics, I think you can see that repeat quite easily__It’s just more hidden in quantum science, as QM and RM science are such vast fields of studies, there’s so many new idea areas interfering with our interpreting knowledge systems, we notice less the needs of new analogies, and falsely stick to the tried and true__yet all science is taught as a finally fallible pursuit, yet having sound methodology, not to end up in the falsehood camp, i.e., science must be corrected as new science comes on line__always…
For example, we’ve designed computers to mimic our mental processing abilities to provide information as we see fit.
Tim, if you could see how far apart we are on this one, it’d scare ya. Yes, computers mimic some of our mental abilities__but, let me give you the simplest analogy why computers are just babes in the woods, compared to human processing capacity. Just take the simple graphic of a man pictured horizontally floating in the sky, above a city background__How would a computer separate, or categorize such a picture, to even start to process it. It couldn’t, unless explicit rules were written for every single image so structured__yet the human mind immediately distinguishes between reality and the non-reality of such a false image. Tim, the representational computationality of mixed state analogies, images, ideas, models and such, on and on, is far more generally processible by humans than computers__it’s not even close to compare computers to humans, imo. Computers are very dumb states of human state processing, there ain’t enough time in the Universe, to even begin to mention… The Point is Tim, computers can not yet represent and compute in general recognition and inter-relational interpretation algorithms__Humans have general judgment algorithms as well as complex judgment algorithms__computers have zero judgment, thus tis almost impossible__maybe entirely impossible__to write such algorithms, and it’s not for not attempting to do so, as this is a very active area of research…
Thus, due to the requirements of such along with the mechanical restraints to achieve such, they will inadvertently mirror our own mental processing aspects. They may not be as dynamic, but they show many of the subsystems needed to merely process information such as memory storage, cpu, timing aspects, output devices, information modulation aspects, etc. Such aspects can be found within our own signal processing abilities also.
I just didn’t want you to think this area was also as complete as our human processing abilities__even if we don’t fully understand our personal processing abilities fully__as it’s far from it, but I guess you’ve mentioned that, Tim…
The computer has many more implications as we have often used such analogies to explore more fundamental universal interactions. For instance, we must consider that a digital concept of the universe is like a FS fabric or matrix as discussed before.
You can think that way if you wish Tim, but I wouldn’t look at it that way at all. We also realize that not only can the universe partially exist in these fundamental superfluid states, it also exhibits far greater complexities than can be captured by any digital process, alone__just in the very fact of its inter-relational complexities of a many systems-system, processing into the entire system__which we generally interpret with many forms of mental generality, before ever attempting to reduce such continuum of complexity, to a more manageable manifold of reduced/deduced simplicity, whether that be mentally or digitally, with computers. The point is that that background, somewhat schizophrenic, complexity is easily handled by human brain power, to make simple sense of the world__yet, computer computations of the same simplicity of generality are far more difficult, as is well recorded in the history of cognitive science, cognitive psychology, rational epistemology, dialectic logic and ratio-logics…
Unlike a computer which transfers information from the cpu, memory, etc along conduits of wires to monitors, speaker, etc, the actual fabric of the universe itself is able to process and transmit information in terms of energy or motion transference without the need of conduits or prearranged paths of conductance. It is this very fabric itself which is at the pinnacle of the hierarchical pyramid whereby it has the ability to manipulate itself into the computer systems and such by which we must use to identify with such operations.
And herein lies the unsolved complexity of the Universal Network of Wave-Field interactions, that I feel we must investigate, if we are to proceed__yet, much deeper than we’ve gone__so far, into that much deeper hydrodynamic field mechanics…
For a computer to exist within the FS matrix and be forged from it, then a higher order lower resolution process must be overseeing such higher resolution lower order mechanics at the atomic and molecular levels which computers operate.
I simply see this as the matrix of absolute motion necessity. Look at it this way Tim__No matter whether it’s a completely non-controlled randomness, or a completely controlled cause and affect/effect system__Neither can be distinguished from the other, at this absolute level__as even the random, out of shear necessity, must progress toward and into the uniformeity we presently see, today. Just think about it__Uniformeity is the necessary condition of any progression to the balanced compaction we presently have. Realize, the vacuum may be a false state to our senses of measurement, as we are simply comparing differences of density, we truly have no absolutely fundamental measurement standard of…!!! We set the standards of measurement to c, h, t, g, m, etc., initially__yet the Universe just simply functions beyond all possibly true definitions. We must always be aware of the differences between our constructs of science, and the actions of the real Universe, to do a properly grounded science of the Universe, while still respecting the laws and limits of science. I’m only mentioning this, as some of science’s fundamentals are valid, and some are not yet fully grounded…
For every electrical impulse and such processed by a computer, the FS must undergo many more interactions to allow for such as it must maintain the structured elements along with EM signal aspects simultaneously. This is the resolution to which all structured information systems must be brought to find them all relational within a theory of everything, as evolution itself along with the most abstract concepts within our minds must also be a process founded within frequency mechanics at the universal resolution, whereby all systems of information we know are found to be logical processes furthered from an underlying governing system of interactions.
But, there’s also the possibility of the fluidicity states of superpositionings that breaks all the governing rules science may be trying to maintain its foundations upon__I mention this again, as that most fundamental architectonic of thought, and real Universal unification physical motion action mechanics, has still not been discovered__as per that final ToE__Nor will it be, imo, until everyone(a majority of physicists anyway) is willing to seriously begin to process how that most fundamental of FS-Field actually functions__From superfluidity to semi-discrete particle-wave states__as I think it’s a superfluid digital matrix__All the way round__Full circle of the Universal cycles. Tim, I don’t think there’s any such thing as absolutely discrete__To me, it’s an eclectic version of a continuous state of quantum states, always involving fluidity, superfluidity and discreteness. This is the completeness of the incompleteness mechanics, I’ve for years seen as what needs to be, to make full mechanical sense of the Universe__How we’ll word that final mechanics, and possibly write some of those complex algorithms, from superfluidity to discreteness, and back, is yet beyond me__yet I do have it worked out in, or as pertaining to, philosophy, logic and psychology… I’m just wondering if the general processing dialectic logic mind, may just be wiser than all of formal academics…??? It is a possibility, ya know…
Now if we consider that the universal matrix has no wires and such interconnecting it, then we must explore how information is transferred throughout the FS with the smallest unit of such information being the photon.
Yes, and this is exactly what must be done, imo. Just as Gilbert Lewis thought the photon was the fundamental substance of the entire Universe__so do I. It may be a bit hard for science to deal with this fact, but it’s exactly where the standard model has been headed for the last 40+ years, since the Higgs Field Mechanism was first put forward in the `60’s…
If we imagine the pixel representation of a three dimensional universal matrix, with each pixel having a value, then the linear translation of these values outward from structured systems along with the absorption of such inward within structured systems is required to accomplish communication between all points within the matrix.
Yes, but you must consider, this may be a false representation, due to the fact, it does not handle the superfluidity, superpositioning states experimentally known to exist…
The universe has no wires and such connecting a cpu in one region with a memory board in another, outputting to a monitor or some such set up. The universe is a multilevel superconductor itself, as it processes information amongst and within information. It’s as if we are within the circuit looking outward rather than our more familiar perspective of outward looking inward as with the technologies we use to identify with such mechanics.
But, we still must use languages that are available, through metasemiotics and supervenience methodologies, that can accommodate our mental updating to still looking in, at the entire process, objectively__with such sign and symbol languages as do exist, to do just that such science. Objectivity can be maintained by such virtual observer positions, as we’ve earlier discussed__It’s just when it gets this involved, the sign and symbol languages must be employed, to avoid the confusion and possible ill conflations of otherwise sound ideas. I don’t know if you follow everything I say, Tim__but, I’m not trying to be evasive__It’s just it’s so complex to talk at this level. We’re wanderers in a land, where no man has gone before…
Photons are these signals of information saturating the matrix or unstructured field as the system communicates with itself. They are in a sense the least action information transferences of the smallest structured systems within communication with each other ie electrons, atomic particles, etc. Gravitational waves may also be relevant as a larger composite ripple of information as groups of information carriers synchronize to form a larger event due to the motions of ever larger structures within the matrix.
I still think we gotta’ add sign and symbol logic to matrix mechanics, to make it more easily understood. It’s simply a matter of using a sound sortal logic, to make such complex ideas more plain to view…
Perhaps the mystery of the photon is due to our search for its identity, when the question should be asked if it has an identity at all as such would better represent structured systems which we are more familiar with.
Well you see, I think the photon is a structured system, and we may just be mis-interpreting it. Let’s say that the photon is the entire undstructured fluidic field or matrix-web of all existence__which upon hydrodynamic compression quantizes itself into semi-discrete wave-particles. I see no difference in the possible operation mechanics of such a web mechanics than any other, we are talking about__except its interpretation and description mechanics. Whether it be your discrete system, conjectured to exist all the way back within the most infinitesimal structures of field mechanics, or my superfluidity being self-circuit quantizing__both are necessitated to function identically, at the most infinitesimal level__as a fully functioning fluidic field of super-positionings of fermions and bosons__no matter what mechanics is chosen… So, what’s the dialectical argument about__Except Interpretations…??? I just say the superfluidity model is necessary, as we know it to scientifically exist already…
Perhaps we should be satisfied in exploring its function whereby acknowledging that which necessitates its existence. Structured systems or fermions such as atoms, molecules, etc, have identities or characteristics by which we observe them.
So don’t em-fields, Tim…
Unstructured field interactions or bosons, which we’ve come to know as forces with their photons, gravitons, etc, are identified more in terms of their strength and the distances over which they interact amongst the structured systems they connect.
Yeah, well what’s the connecting substance if not a superfluidic non-viscous continuum__The Absolute Physical FS-Field…??? I’ll get you to see what I’m saying, after a while…
It is by their works which we know such things as photons.
Or is it by the necessities of the inter-relational inter-connections of the FS-Continuum…??? Continuum means unified manifold…
Every object or structured system has an unstructured extension outward into the universe.
I think to think of the extension as unstructured is a misnomer__The FS-Field is necessitated to be the Physical FS more than any other portion of the Universe, imo__Even David was adamant about this fact__remember his; “Matter Is All In A Void” thread? He never backed away from that position, except for stating a few contradictions, at different places…
This extension is due to the unstructured displacement of the system itself along with the reflection, absorption and emission aspects of all of the incoming and outgoing forms of EM radiation.
Radiations are real physical wave-particles. I used to have to be very careful not to get hit with too many of those zoomies, when in the Nuke plants’ hot zones__They’re real physical wave-particles, Tim__no matter what state__extended or compacted…
The various frequencies which represent the quantities of energy being transferred establish the parameters by which all things or forms of substance interact.
I think the frequencies merely reflect our scientific measurement abilities, learned to date, more than the actual mechanical interactions. Think of it this way__we are measuring what the larger particle is registering its frequency mechanics to be, not the photon’s actual frequency__per say… We are simply recording what protons, neutrons, electrons and positrons are signaling to us__not exactly the photon’s shape and mechanics between recordings of travel__which just may be that super-chiralling/a-chiralling mechanics depicted in the links you sent, of Leedskalnin’s diagrams, plus what isn’t depicted of the off and opposite handedness particle-waves’ extended motions, and possible a-chiralling Bose-Einstein Condensations’ mechanics, etc…
Structured localized frequencies interact with unstructured non-localized frequencies to the point that the very identity of the structured system is also extended spatially throughout the system by way of these interactions and the frequencies absorbed, reflected or emitted.
Yeah, maybe we could refer to it as the ‘Hairy-Particle-Wave-Field Model’, to somewhat capture the extensions and supfluidities… I have read it mentioned that way elsewhere…
Anyway, hope I haven’t boggled your mind too much, Tim__but, maybe you can get more of an idea where I’m actually coming from, idk…
Lloyd
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