I read this partial paragraph of your last post to my wife, and was about to post to you, when you wrote this most recent post. Anyway, she also saw the inconsistencies in what you stated here:
The more we learn about it, the more we simply and inevitably learn about ourselves. We don't have to be able to see within if we simply identify with that which is taking place externally. Thus, we have effectively defeated the barrier of layers or so I would think.
Tim, my wife suggested asking you; "How do you learn, without looking in to your own memory...?" You see Tim, it's your use of 'blanket statement' words and ideas that chase me to showing you the importance of how our thought mechanics works__and that's meaning; 'Works according to the mechanics of the external world, yet is multiplied internally by physical memory storage mechanics, which is dynamically updatable'__whereas, the external data/information is not updatable__it's fixed as fully structured systems information, repeating over and over just about identically, every time a new star is born, etc., on and on... Stars have no capacity to update their information databases, as do humans, which also have the ability to 'Create' totally new knowledge realizations of such systems, including themselves... No external system can do this. You keep trying to over-concentrate on the external mechanics, as though it's all that exists__it's not__and yet you are constantly using your own 'internal thought and intelliegence mechanics', while denying the extra-bio capacity to re-arrange information systems, into entirely new information systems__which external systems have no capacity to do the same, even though the external systems are actually building the internal systems__the internal bio-systems become autonomous thinkers, once constructed__or no new information creation would even or ever be possible__which you keep forgetting or avoiding... These facts ain't avoidable, Tim...
Here's another statement, that made me laugh;
I simply refuse to put thought as a fundamental system Lloyd, no matter how much our egos might suggest it. To me it must be explained by the most fundamental of interactions which underly the entire rest of the inanimate universe.
Tim, what are you using 100% of the time__marbles, ducks, frogs...? Thought is all you have to use__'Inner Thought...' I really got a kick outta' this line... Tim, thought is not a fundamental system, and I've never said it was__I've said just the opposite__Yet, thought just happens to be the most important system of evolution__plain and simple__or you know nothing... Egos don't suggest anything about thought being fundamental, in my book, and I clearly stated; 'The World and Universe Are The Fundamental-Substance Maths and Logics of All Particles, and Particle-Wave Structures...' The Universe and World Itself, Are Combinatoric Math and Logic, Before 'Sh*thead Man', Ever Came Along... So Dave's comment about math being fallacious, though some math is, is BS... Tim, the human mind has nothing else to found the brain/mind on, except sound math, logic and the measurement of the experiments of__or you have nothing but the stupid 'Ego...' We don't need the 'Duck Quacking Backwards...' Tell me something; 'How am I gonna' get you to realize you got an intelligent brain...?' :-)? Just kidding, as you did produce one excellent post, even though you used no 'thought'__Now, there's a trick I'd like to know... Lmsfao...
Now let me point out a few more places where your mental cart is possibly sniffing far too much of the horse's ars'...
I won't make the same mistake by trying to place intelligence at the center of the universe.
Tim, again__What are you using to think with, if not intelligence...? If intelligence isn't the center of your personal universe__What is...? And no, this doesn't mean intelligence is sitting somewhere in the center of the real 'Totally Ignorant Universe', that by particle-field over-population, forces its mechanics to micro indeterminacy and macro determinacy__yet still, it's motion did force it to be mathematically combinatoric and logically organized along the way__That you can't deny, with the most central core intelligence, you possess... Do you see how little sense, that statement actually states...? Tim, each sentence we all speak is either a logical representation, or it's simply not__and when it's not, we construe meanings we had no intention of construing...
Intelligence and bio nature appears to have taken many eons to accomplish as it is the newest system or rather most recent layer in existence to be added to this complex universe. There's no evidence that it supercedes the same interactions which built the atoms, stars, galaxies, planets, bodies and brains required to allow for it's existence.
Tim, it isn't a point of superceding the interactions, the point is it supercedes the intelligence of interactions__as the interactions had 'zero' pre-biotic intelligence... You just seem to have a big problem of granting bio-beings the intelligence it's absolutely impossible for the geo-universe to have... What da ya want__Intelligent rocks...? :-) You're crossing up interactions and intelligence__two distinct subjects... Yes, intelligence requires quantum interactions, but the two independent subjects can be conflated, or you simply produce confusions... The Universe Is A "Stupid" Rock__"We Are Intelligent..."__"Only We Are__The Brilliant Bio-Bugs..."
There's only evidence that such fundamental interactions which constructed those various layers of existence simply reach a state where information is allowed to begin being structured differently. You point out the great complexity of the mind as proof of it's distinction from geo nature. I just see such mental complexity as proof that we don't fully understand the much greater complexity of geo nature whereby such things as imagination, structuring of ideas, free will, etc, can arise or perhaps as I suggest, how such complexity arises from mere parameters whereby the parameters aren't necessarily complex, but the outcomes through eons of factoring such parameters becomes that way.
I think you better dig your thinker outta' your ars' and simply realize it ain't gonna discredit your posts' excellent scientific ideas__to admit you are more intelligent than the 'Extremely Stupid Universe...' Tim, don't think I'm just 'picki-anny-ing' your post to death__as I'm actually attempting to make the very important point to you, of how intelligently evolved the Universe has become__But 'only' through 'Human Intelligence and Proper Inference Mechanics' Knowledge...' Otherwise, the Universe would just necessarily exist__'Lacking All Description...' You'll find these trivia points have far more importance to your science, than you thus far realize__at least from what I can tell of what you've written, as pertains to your trivializing of personal rational and logical intelligence... You know, the East did this very same thing centuries ago, Tim__Their scientists developed away from their earlier hard science, math and sound logic interpretations, into their more recent history of soft science interpretations, due to accusing math and logic of being the devil, and replacing their thinking with 'false intuitions' of their bogus 'intuitive egos...' You don't wanna' make that same mistake, over again...
I also find it easier to communicate the workings of the brain to an external reference than trying to develop the many laguage skills required to explain it in any other terms to people who may not speak my language.
Tim, think about this; "Where do you find the 'external reference' of concepts, or group and integration/separation of concepts...?" Just as Einstein stated in my last post to you; "Physical concepts and the laws of nature are "free creations of the human mind." Concepts also exist only in the brain/mind, Tim... You got no 'thinker' without memory state concepts... You can try and describe it with inter-actions all you wish__It's still the universally known word__ 'Concept...' See why the 'Universal Language' is so handy...? 'Interactions' don't replace the more easily understood word__'Concept'__All 'Concepts' Are Innate Self-Mechanical Processes__Period...!!!
If I were to search for free will, I'd simply look for where it emerged by such processes rather than seeking an intrinsic aspect of nature which accounted for it to be a separate function of a universe which otherwise had none.
Tim, if you'd stop mis-interpreting what I and others stated, you'd get further ahead. I said nothing about it being a function in the way you are interpreting my words. Tim, if you'd simply thoroughly read the last post entirely, especially the Addendum section, you'd clearly see the Universe of QM's indeterminate actions fully accounts for free-will inter-actions__that's what I've all along said__though bio-nature is certainly an extended thought function of what the geo-universe is doing, in the fact only the bio-universe has the soft-structured matter to allow the QM-Free-Will function, and any fundamental thought, to even exist. You oughta' get your concepts straight__"geo over there__bio over here... Lmsfao..." Or do you see soft-matter brains, outside of bio-skulls...? That's twice, lmsfao...
To me, there's enough uncertainty per QM in the things we will never know and can't measure which might accomadate such a concept, but this still doesn't rule out a simple overall concept of how the universe might function in terms of information rather than forces, matter, energy, etc.
Come on Tim, now you are over-stepping the bounds of real world science__Information 'Rather' than forces, matter, energy, etc...? Describe information without forces of particle-wave-mechanics, please...??? What to 'phuck' does information mean, without particle-wave-mechanics of a FS...? How would a brain even think information, without particle-wave-mechanics__Ghosts...???
Determinism is also debatable in many ways even with a discrete system if motion is quantized to spacetime, because the system would be on idle even If it weren't processing.
What about an isomorphic continuum mechanics possibility, of particles passing into field continuities, and 'condensating' back to real wave-particles... Though we can't measure such interactions, this is the core of QM's initial mechanics' theories, just as those mentioned by Dirac, in that last post of mine...
Every little motion doesn't have to be causal and constructive. I really see no way to accomplish a 100% efficent process which doesn't have wastful interactions.
And this is exactly the mechanics that allows the randomness, or indeterminacy of free-will to exist, as just about all those guys argued, in my last post's links. Furthermore those links represent over 140 philosophers and 100 scientists, with their free-will reasons and facts... What is the only thing you wanna' read, your own 'intuitive ego...?' lmsfao...
Ultimately, if we can't fit reality into physical processes being as we are materialists, where are we gonna fit it?
I've never said to fit it anywhere else, Tim... Your reading in ideas, that aren't there...
My materialist views simply don't allow such because if all is matter or substance then all can be explained by way of the physics of such a substance.
Never said it couldn't__What you been readin...??? You're readin-in to my ideas, Tim... It seems like you are using my ideas, I used to use to David, years ago__and I'm using some of David's ideas, to you, that he used to me... I'd like to be able to use my own__but conflation keeps blocking the path mechanics...
Intelligence is merely when the bio universe has reached such a state to be so far removed from the fundamental mechanics by which geo nature operates that they can't even be recognized as having any part in such intelligence any longer.
Yeah, and what intelligence system did you draw that from__A duck...? Intelligence exists only in brains/minds, Tim__and must have a rational intellectual free-will, to choose between stupidity and intelligence... You ain't gettin outta' the intelligence necessity of free-will, no matter how hard ya try... This reminds me of the skeptics who said they processed information from outside the real world__"Yeah, well just where is that...?" We must all 'process' all information from inside this dear lil' ol' skull__sittin atop our shoulders...
Yet, if we were to excavate through the many layers enough, the past universe is still presently within us also.
Tim, what are you__an epiphenomenoligist...? Sad to inform you__there's no past Universe still presently within us. Us is a blank slate, with a few__when compared to the whole Universe__waves with certain frequencies, amplitudes and varying wave lengths__constantly passing through us, feeding us all the information pool, we do freely choose from__but that nowhere's near makes an entire Universe. That's what Heisenberg was talking about in my last post to you__We never even possess all the information of even the present state of this simple world space, called Earth, because most of it is hidden within other passenger's heads, then there's the extreme immensity of the global information pool__just think about all the ideas existing in all the world's libraries, not even yet interpreted into any form of Universal Language, let alone our own... This is where the 'intuitive ego' thinks it knows far more than it possibly can, Tim... Knowledge is knowing what can't be known, just as much as it is knowing what can be known__and quite often the most important, to keep one from falling into mans very 'stupid intuitive ego...'
Tim, the biggest job in the world is separating one's ego from its true intelligence... I find it much easier to not know anything, than to know something, as I'm constantly having to edit every word I read, especially on the web and almost any new books. I do find some older 19th century masters' ideas worth listening to, but the modern world's gone nuts__completely, and I actually like it, because this means we are on the verge of necessary truth entering the present insanity...
Btw, your post's mechanics, up to the last few paragraphs is excellent__You are turning into a more sound scientific thinker, all the time, and__Thanks...!!!
Now__'How is it, wave-mechanically operationally possible, that one's own intelligence can talk to one's own stupidity__'Memory State Mechanics__Maybe...???' lmffao...
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