Seems we found another one of those fundamental divides which seperate us. Lmao. That's ok.
To bridge the gap between the two systems (bio vs geo) Lloyd, I'm suggesting that we've over complicated bio nature slghtly and under complicated geo nature entirely lmfao. I'm not saying that geo nature directly applies at the simple atomic levels as though making a direct comparison. I'm suggesting that at the subatomic information level, the rules are the same for both. When the atomic level of geo nature folds back in on itself to create a never before materialized bio interface due to the mechanical entropy of the system, then a distinction is made between the two systems, yet they still have fundamentally the same sub structure at the subatomic absolute resolution but it is the higher order entropy which now causes more complexity to emerge from the otherwise inanimate system.
As I said, a very simple two dimensional program was made with each pixel having to operate per it's neighbors. I posted a similar one at TQ a few years ago. If surrounded on certain sides, a pixel made an action different than if not which ultimately led to very emergent patterns through the time aspect of the elapsed process and the space aspect of ever larger groups of pixels working together. Im not suggesting anything this simple, but consider how much more complicated a three dimensional system with more complex parameters than this might become. It would potentially build in layers from the subatomic to the astronomical and back to the bio scales just like nature.
This all goes back to my inference of a simple parameter such as a conservation of momentum over distance and through time overseeing a unique universal programming aspect which might shed light on the complexities of the system. A photon has momentum at it's velocity of c as does a massive system at a proportionately less velocity whereby due to c conservation the photon has less instantaneous momentum which it can impact another system with, but distributes it over a much larger distance within an equal interval of absolute time than does the more massive system which can reciprocally impact another system at a much greater eneregy level.
This goes back to the animations I made also which I'm working further on in my thoughts and should be able to add more to later but can't do an animation cause I'm on a job away from my computer, but basically we go back to the falling bodies analogy (because its just easier to think in terms of falling) and imagine a two sided mirrored wall which represents absolute space and time extending to near infinity. Now we imgaine that on each side of the center wall there is another finite mirror equally spaced off the left and right side facing the center mirrored wall with one moving at near c and one moving at a much slower classical velocity. Now these two mirrors are divided up into equal intervals marked thereon whereby if both were going the same velocity the intervals would be the same, but the greater the velocity the shorter the intervals relative to each other ie distance contraction. Now, in between each of the two moving mirrors and the absolute stationary mirrored wall, a stream of photons (considering the particle view to make it easier) equally spaced is bouncing at a fixed constant angle between the mirrors as they move forward thus establishing a photon clock within each reference frame with a phase velocity of c and a group velocity much less depending upon the mirror spacing and angle of attack but for the thought experiment we'll just say that both photon wave packets are identical. The wavelength established by the photon wave packet also establishes an equal absolute spacing reference upon both sides of the center mirrored wall. Now we can consider a single photon in each frame of reference (on each side of the center mirror) being dropped at the same time and from the same position as the two mirrors go into motion/get dropped, with the photon clock simply running in the background with an endless stream of photons.
So now we have two falling mirror rulers at seperate velocities, two photons at equal velocity falling at c within their frames and two symetrical photon wave packets (oscillating time reference) propagating through at a greater group linear velocity than both the mirror rulers, but less than the two photons which have no angular variance thus propagating at c. Now we can imagine how the changing intervals of the moving mirrors due to the motion of each reference frame changes how absolute time is experienced as each moving mirror would recieve a different phase velocity as it referenced the bouncing photon stream as it more slowly passed the higher velocity frame of reference and more quickly passed the lower velocity frame. Thus we get a dilated perception of absolute time along with a contracted perception of absolute distance as we imagine the effects such relative motions play upon referencing from one frame to another while all the while recieving the same value for the speed of light/dropped photon in each frame.
Now if you can see, the two moving mirrors construction from the subatomic is actually no different than the referenced clock signal merely just a slower group velocity thus allowing for the conserved lateral motion to establish a mass value relative to c. The de Broglie type matter waves simply set reference frame against reference frame whereby the only relational background independent measurements going on are from one wave system to another whereby whether determining distance or time, each system is finding a value for such in reference to the wave aspects of itself relative to another system in terms of group velocity, phase velocity, frequency, wavelength and amplitude. It's easy to see how oscillation frequency dilates temporal reference but the rest becomes visible when trying to establish the length contraction aspect due to wave aspects of the matter wave system.
Taking such concepts to a background dependent stage by representing such interactions in terms of a digital type representation helps to further evaluate the exchange and conservation of motion from system to system by allowing for the absolute observer position. This all relates to how information is transfered as with bit rate and bandwidth concepts. The reason we can obtain depth perception of structured systems by way of the unstructured information within EM waves which are reflected from such whereby we don't just see in two dimensions as with a wall of information slapping us in the eyes is due to the aspect of such transmitted information propagating at c whereby the information is reflectively transmitted and recieved in a temporal sequence thus allowing the difference in time reception supplying visualization of depth in the third dimension which is an everpresent dimension. If our minds couldn't distinguish such then it would be as if a solid wall of information was recieved instantaneously. This does happen in nature but at lesser velocities than c which is how structured systems interact or make contact. We tend to call it mass. The greater the amount of information propagating as a unit, the more such motions conserve lateral transference from linear. This goes into the decay mechanics approaching c.
If we consider a photon as one bit of information and structured systems containing many bits of information, it's easy to see why the variance in the transference rate which seperates structured from unstructured information exchange. The very coupling of structures or information in terms of 'forces' is a conserved aspect from the uncoupled state of electromagnetism or photons. There's simply something transfered from unstructured states propagating at c to structured states propagating at velocity values which multiply times their mass to account for their greater momentum. We translate this as an inability to accelerate a structured massive system to c due to the infinite energy requirements, but all of the values which pertain to structured and unstructured systems such as energy, mass, force, momentum, inertia, frequency, wavelength, amplitude, etc, are merely dimensions which are interchangable whereby distinguishing such systems, yet are always conserved in some manner.
This allows for a conservation aspect of conserved momentum through distance and time or something to that effect, whereby potentially allowing for a quantitative aspect of why such structured systems decay if certain requirements are met or perhaps not met. If the transference rate has to be maintained per the reciprocal relationship of the distance covered by a propagating system vs the amount of instantaneous energy delivered by such, then when complex composite stuctures encounter situations happening within such short temporal intervals where it cannot maintain such a parameter by way of self adjusting quickly enough as with the mechanics which allow for a length contraction, it would have to decay or eject bits of information in the form of radiation whereby such a law was maintained. Slowing or accelerating a large object doesn't cause radiation of it's information structure but it does change the matter wave frequency/wavelength aspects of the structure internally per length contraction, as it causes a reorganization of such information whereby maintaining such a micro parameter. If similar interactions happen at the more micro scales per atom splitting type encounters, then the restructuring might require a loss of information in the form of radiation. The simple repositioning of an electron is obviously enough to radiate a required restructuring of the unstructured EM field.
Point being here, that geo nature isn't just a simple process of atoms and structured systems. There are many conversions of information taking place constantly which allow for many dynamics. When dynamic bio systems interact directly with such conversions then the highest order informational layer of nature built from the various other layers and aspects discussed becomes a very dynamic place which could ultimately translate to the geo complexity needed to account for bio mechanics such as thought, logic, etc. We can't simply just observe a galaxy or solar system at the macro scales and find any interactions complex enough to translate directly to the interactions of the mind, but if we were to understand how information is organized and maintained at the most micro informational resolutions to accomplish such macro mechanics, then we are exploring an intrinsic parameter which might apply to an external means for internal exploration of the mind. Who's to say what a simple quantitative conservative conversion at the subatomic scales looks like at the macro scales especially when you have various systems a different stages of such conversions interacting to ultimately accomplish the same thing while shaping a diverse universe in the process. Some of the most complex emergent patterns in nature can arise when simple rules are necessarily followed through vast periods of time and various layers of space. Structured systems are just like archeology, the more we dig within them to reach the ever shorter distances that reality happens within, the further back in time we are going to witness how things were at the earlier stages of the universe when such systems were formed along with witnessing the foundation by which this house of cards is now standing.
I simply refuse to put thought as a fundamental system Lloyd, no matter how much our egos might suggest it. To me it must be explained by the most fundamental of interactions which underly the entire rest of the inanimate universe. Egos used to try to place the Earth at the center of the solar system whereby the sun orbited it, this was obviously a mistake and in one of Dave's greatest responses that I recall from TQ, they even supplied the math to prove it, thus math isn't absolute proof but can be manipulated as we both know to stroke mankinds great ego. I won't make the same mistake by trying to place intelligence at the center of the universe. Intelligence and bio nature appears to have taken many eons to accomplish as it is the newest system or rather most recent layer in existence to be added to this complex universe. There's no evidence that it supercedes the same interactions which built the atoms, stars, galaxies, planets, bodies and brains required to allow for it's existence. There's only evidence that such fundamental interactions which constructed those various layers of existence simply reach a state where information is allowed to begin being structured differently. You point out the great complexity of the mind as proof of it's distinction from geo nature. I just see such mental complexity as proof that we don't fully understand the much greater complexity of geo nature whereby such things as imagination, structuring of ideas, free will, etc, can arise or perhaps as I suggest, how such complexity arises from mere parameters whereby the parameters aren't necessarily complex, but the outcomes through eons of factoring such parameters becomes that way. In good spirits and just to rile you up, maybe your horse is looking the cart in the ass a little also. Lmfao.
I dont want to get you too much on the defensive because I feel that even if I'm wrong on a few things which I know I am, there's important aspects in what I'm saying which need to be addressed and developed much further if we are serious about solving this little riddle. I also find it easier to communicate the workings of the brain to an external reference than trying to develop the many laguage skills required to explain it in any other terms to people who may not speak my language. A picture is worth a thousand words. I see no way to discuss such complexity of the mind strictly internally as I feel the answers we seek are all around us rather than merely within us, but that's just my opinion and I have great respect for yours as well. If I were to search for free will, I'd simply look for where it emerged by such processes rather than seeking an intrinsic aspect of nature which accounted for it to be a seperate function of a universe which otherwise had none. To me, there's enough uncertainty per QM in the things we will never know and can't measure which might accomadate such a concept, but this still doesn't rule out a simple overall concept of how the universe might function in terms of information rather than forces, matter, energy, etc. Determinism is also debatable in many ways even with a discrete system if motion is quantized to spacetime, because the system would be on idle even If it weren't processing. Every little motion doesn't have to be causal and constructive. I really see no way to accomplish a 100% efficent process which doesn't have wastful interactions. Ultimately, if we can't fit reality into physical processes being as we are materialists, where are we gonna fit it? I refuse to use the approach of modern science when their calculations don't work where they create exotic concepts to explain the inconsistencies eg dark matter, dark energy and some would argue black holes. My materialist views simply don't allow such because if all is matter or substance then all can be explained by way of the physics of such a substance. Intelligence is merely when the bio universe has reached such a state to be so far removed from the fundamental mechanics by which geo nature operates that they can't even be recognized as having any part in such intelligence any longer. Yet, if we were to excavate through the many layers enough, the past universe is still presently within us also.
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